By Dr. H.C. Kinley
11/1966
Transcribed by Beverly Allen
Dr. Kinley: Thank you ever so much. I’m always happy and glad to talk with you about the things that’s pertaining to the Purpose of God, and about knowing God as He really is. I sometimes think about Moses when he was leading Israel in her carnal state, from Egypt up through the wilderness, and all the murmuring and the complaining and griping and what not that the children of Israel did. And the Book does say that Moses was one of the meekest men there was on the earth. And it got to the place from all that aggravation, that Moses one time just fell out on his face, just sickened out with them rebels. They just aggravated the poor man so bad, and I saw what effect it had on him. And sometimes it makes me think about trying to lead a people, and if it really was not God in me, I’d done got sickened out on this thing over thirty-five years, just sick and tired of it. And I wouldn’t get up here and try one more time, every time. You see what I’m talking about? When I look back and survey that thirty-five years, and then look around to see some of the fruits of my teaching, it’s sickening. It’s just as sickening as it can be, and I don’t know of anything that hurts me any worse. If you were sure enough sincere about it, and you struggled in every way according to that which is right to show the people, without any reservations, presort or kind. Employ everything at your command, and every mean with this reservation that it is God in me. Just like when God spoke here in the wilderness from Mount Sinai , if I didn’t take these things into consideration I’d done quit long. And if it hadn’t been true, if God hadn’t gave me a revelation, sure enough, you’d found out long before now! Yes indeed, you be done had that thing found out. You wouldn’t have to be standing around scratching your head now and wondering about it, I’d been gone! Yes indeed. And as old as I am, if it wasn’t God that was taking care of me with all the worries and all that I have been through with I’d been dead. You can’t take it! They would have done worried you to death if nothing else. Yes indeed. So now you can just look at that for thirty-five years. And you know things that I have told you about, (now you listen at what I’m talking about), they don’t fit the worlds case at all. You’re up against something; you’re really up against something. Now for a man to just stand straight up and flatfooted, and say Christendom is wrong… Now you opened your mouth to wide that trip if you’re not prepared to prove it, cause somebody’ll make you eat them words.
Now there was man that, (I noticed that Dr. Allen spoke about it when he was up here, and possibilities are you have read something about it), I speak of Bishop Pike. Now Bishop Pike, some of you know what’s happening in his case. He was classified as a heretic, and a departure from the faith, and they have brought charges against him. And he has been before a tribunal or court, religious court, to answer the charges that have been brought against him. Now one of the things he’s talking about is the Virgin Birth of Messiah, which all religions and Christendom teaches. Now he said, I wanna tell you what he said. I’m just real sorry that I didn’t bring that magazine tonight. Dr. Billy Carrol come and brought me the magazine last night. And I never read it at that time but I have seen it in the news papers and on TV and what not, but Dr. Williams came pass the house and he sat down there and he read it and he remarked about Bishop Pike. Now what I read about Bishop Pike was this, and the trial that he’s on. He said , “That Jesus was called the son of God and the son of David of the tribe of Judah .” And he said “Now according to the records, if Joseph was not his father or had nothing to do with Miriam or Mary as you know it to be, before His birth, it was Joseph that was of the lineage of the kings and not Mary. So then therefore it’s Joseph, he was the one that through whom the title should be reckoned, and the lineage should be reckoned through Joseph, not Mary.” Now that’s one of the charges that they have got him up on. So by him making a statement like that, now he was blind. Now that don’t mean Christendom understood (they were wise and the Bishop he was dumb) it just means both of them were.
Now listen! Now Dr. Allen said to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word it’s because there no light in them. Now when you go back to the Law and to the Prophets, now the Law said, (steady old boy, careful, make sure you understand this; don’t skip it). See the Law said this: When Joshua brought them over across the River Jordan and He went on to the point where the land was suppose to be divided up among them. Are you listening now? The twelve sons of Jacob, the tribes of Jacob, they could not marry or intermarry within those tribes. I mean this: somebody might not have understood what I meant by that. Now the tribe of Levi or the sons of Levi, they couldn’t marry a woman out of the tribe of Judah , and vice versa. They had to get a wife or a bride out of their own tribe. Great big question – why? It was to keep the inheritance in the family, that’s why they couldn’t do that. Now here’s where he failed; this is where Bishop Pike failed. Now by him saying that the inheritance and all, to the throne of David and Joseph was of the tribe of Judah , out of which that lineage should come, that child should be born of the tribe of Judah , now you know good and well men are not giving birth to sons. They haven’t been! I mean that that woman too, Mary, she also was of the tribe of Judah ! Mary I’m talking about.
Now if you’d just looked on back, clear on back to Genesis to the start, and you’d see that that woman, Eve I’m talking about, was taken out of Adam, I’m talking about. And that man Adam, he had to be taken from somewhere. He was taken from the virgin mother earth. And if the pedigrees and genealogies is correct according to the 3 rd Chapter of Luke he was the son of God. I’m talking about Adam. Now Adam was born of that woman; God was his Father. Virgin Mother Earth was his Mother! Then that goes without saying that a virgin, (woman I’m talking about), shall conceive and bring forth a son, and that virgin was Mary. And Mary and Joseph both were of the tribe of Judah ! Now if the man was of the woman, (virgin mother earth), and the woman was of the man, that’s got to repeat itself. So then as Paul puts it, “As the woman was of the man, so also wasn’t the man of the woman.” Now they got him on the carpet for that. Now another thing Bishop Short, [Student Body Laughs] uh, not Bishop Short but Bishop Pike, (well he’s on the carpet too), me too as for that matter. We’re all on the carpet! [Doc Laughs] All right. Now over in, over cross the waters, Bishop Pike said this. Brother Williams laughed about it when he read it in that magazine. He said over there, over cross the pond, they got one God, (that’s monotheism), one God, just one God and three wives. Over here, we got one wife and three Gods. Now you see the Catholic they can’t do nothing with things like that. Now that’s your trinitarian concept of God. Now he say he just don’t believe in it. Said he just don’t believe it’s in the Book. Now they can’t handle it. They can’t handle it. That’s the truth; that’s the truth. That’s the way they got it over there; and that’s the way it is over here. You’re allowed three wives over there, Moslems, three over there, but just the one God and the three wives. Now over here they got three Gods, the Father, the Son, and the… God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, and one wife… [Doc Laughs] Now ain’t that something? Something to think about ain’t it? Now they got him on the carpet for that, plus some other things. You see what I mean?
Now I heard Dr. Allen say another thing when he was up here. He mentioned Bishop Pike all right, and he also mentioned this when he was up here. He talked about the understanding of this pattern, and how it works. And everywhere around that he went when he went around on his visit, why he was working with it. And the testimony of the people everywhere, and I’ve been where he’s been too, they say they never had heard nothing like this before. Now that’s their testimony. Well now a person would say, “Well where have they been if they haven’t heard nothing like that?” And some of ‘em are people that belong to church, including preachers. We’ve had a lot of preachers to say they never heard of nothing like this while they were going to school. It’s not because it’s not in the Bible. But now here’s something else I heard Dr. Allen say. He said “That the Scribes and the Pharisees, they complained because that Jesus didn’t go to them and ask them permission and authority. And they would say to Him by what authority do you do these things?” That was very true. What he said that they said was true, and it is in the Bible that way. But I want to tell you something about that too, that the world overlook. Now listen, He did go to them, He sure did. Went right up to headquarters too, Sanhedrin Council. Now if you don’t think that’s in the Bible I will read. It stays in the Book you know; it don’t rub out and fade out, you know. They got some slates now you write on, and then you pull up the lid and the writing is gone, but you see this stays in the Book. Now you’ll find this in the 2nd Chapter of Luke and about the 49th verse on down where He actually went to them. Now He had to do that because the prophet had said, “That He, the Lord would suddenly appear in His temple.” And you’ve read it, and I’ve read it, and everybody else we’ve read it before. But now it’s an oversight on the
Scribes and the Pharisees by asking Him by what authority and all that He does His deeds and so forth and so on. And when He discussed His authority with them in the Scriptures, and they were astonished! The smart boys were astonished! And listen, He wasn’t but twelve years old. And His parents they had gone a whole days journey without even missing Him. And when they got back up there, going back to where they were with Him last, and that’s back up at the temple. And when they did find Him, they wanted to kind of tongue lash Him a little bit for not coming along with the crowd. And He said to them, “Why didn’t you know either that it was time, it’s time for me to be about my Father’s business? I’m tending to my Father’s business.” Now when a child become twelve years old in the Jewish family, turning into his thirteenth year he’s on his on then. He’s responsible. And now He’s twelve years old and He’s about His Father’s business. And He’s discussing His Father’s business with that Sanhedrin Council, which is them seventy that come up from them seventy elders back there. And He’s discussing it with the smart boys who later went out there, and asked Him by what authority did He do this, and that, and the other, when they were confused and astonished at His answers when He was twelve years old! And eighteen or twenty years afterward, they’re no smarter then than they were when He was twelve years old and stupid enough to go back and ask Him, “By what authority do you do this?” You see what I’m talking about? Now He had discussed it with them before He was thirty years old. He wasn’t but twelve this time. You see the point? They didn’t realize, they didn’t recognize. And when He was up there talking with them about the Law and the Prophecy, they were astonished at it. They had it all the time. They had been reading it all the time. And they were asking questions and answers, just like I give you the privilege to ask me about different things, questions and answers. You don’t have to read that unless you want to take up the time to read it. You can if you want to. You wanna read it? Do you want, you wanna read it?
Audience: Yes!
Dr. Kinley: You can start.
Reader: And it came to pass that after three days they found Him in the temple sitting in the midst of the doctors.
Dr. Kinley: Now He’s sitting, and He’s right in the middle of them, all the smart boys up at the temple. And them same smart boys, that council, they’re down there asking Him, “By what authority?” You see what I’m talking about? Looking in the book all the time, suppose to be. . . All right read.
Reader: both hearing them and asking them questions. And all that heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.
Dr. Kinley : Now you see that now? They were astonished at His understanding and answers. All right read on.
Reader: And when they saw Him they were amazed. And His mother said unto Him, Son, why hast thou dealt with us?
Dr. Kinley: Now say, ” What kind of obedience is this? Your father,” (I’m talking about Joseph. We understand the story, we just calling it flat. Now we done explained that enough for you to understand). Say “What kind of way is that of obeying?” All right read.
Reader: Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? Behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And He said unto them, how is it that ye sought me, wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?
Dr. Kinley: That’s right. Now if you run references and go back and see what His Father’s business was and where He was suppose to be when He was twelve years old, and why He was twelve years old, (the twelve tribes and the seventy elders). You see what I’m talking about? “And the Lord Himself shall suddenly appear at His temple,” and His foster father or Mary and Joseph had no jurisdiction over Him, which they should have realized but they didn’t. And so He’s asking “Didn’t you know that I must be about my Father’s business?” You see how we can overlook things? And you see what terrible blunders we can make?
Now getting back to this woman for a minute. Now, if you remember back in the Garden of Eden, (now if you don’t remember my job is calling your attention to it, and by the Book too), what the Lord said to the serpent, and what He said to the woman after the transgression there, the penalty. He said to the woman, “That she, her heel… Now you see if this is right now. Don’t endorse this, cause I may be saying what I’m saying to trap you, to see whether you know or not. “That the serpent’s head would bruise,” whose heel?
Students: her heel. . .
Dr. Kinley: huh?
Students: her heel. . .
Dr. Kinley: you sure?
Students: [silence in the room]
Dr. Kinley: maybe you better read.
Student: His heel, bruise his heel. . .
Dr. Kinley: Oh, that’s different, His heel. Now that is to say, the Son of God’s heel… Is that it? Suppose you read it, let’s get straightened up here.
Reader: And the Lord God said unto the serpent, because thou hast done this thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field.
Dr. Kinley: um hum
Reader: upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Dr. Kinley: That’s right
Reader: And unto the woman He said. . .
Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute! Let’s get this whose heel and whose head here; that’s what we’re after. Now straighten us up there doc.
Reader: He said I’ll put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed. . .
Dr. Kinley: NOW WHOSE IS THE WOMAN’S HEAD?
Reader: “and her seed…” THE SEED OF THE WOMAN IS YAHSHUA.
Dr. Kinley: NOW THAT’S RIGHT, THE SEED OF THE WOMAN IS YAHSHUA. That’s right. Now then what?
Reader: it shall bruise thy head. . .
Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)
Reader: and thou shalt bruise his heel. . .
Dr. Kinley: And thou shalt bruise His heel. [Doc Laughs] You see what I mean? See you have to stop! Cause if you don’t, you’ll have one of the awfulest messes and misunderstanding. And unto the woman He said, what?
Reader: And unto the woman, He said I will greatly multiply thy sorrow…
Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)
Reader: and thy conception. . .
Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)
Reader: In sorrow thou shall bring forth children. . .
Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)
Reader: and thy desire shall be to thy husband. . .
Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)
Reader: and he shall rule over thee. . .
Dr. Kinley: Now that’s what He said to the woman. Now a lot of women have got this idea. “That the Lord said that we’d be saved in child bearing.” Said “Look how many children I had, and the Lord said I’d be saved in child bearing.” And she don’t assume any other responsibility cause God’s gone save her anyhow cause she’s had some children. And Paul said here in his epistle to Timothy, “That she would be saved in child bearing if she continue in the faith.” And that’s why he said that by her husband ruling over her. The husband in this case, on this side of the cross, is Yahshua the Messiah. And the church is His body or the woman, and He’s the head of it, and He’s ruling over the church. She better stay in there if she expects to be saved. We don’t want you to be fooled by something like that. See all these misunderstandings among these big shots in the world it’s terrible.
Can I tell you about this? Dr. Gross and myself and Dr. Harris is implicated in this. You see, because we know that the Devil… The Messiah said in John 8:44, said “The Devil sinneth from the beginning.” Listen at me now, said, “He was a murderer from the beginning.” Now a person wouldn’t hardly stop to think that the Pope sitting over there on the throne, and come down through the ages, them people have murdered millions. They call ’em heretics. I didn’t say a few folks I said millions! And people are stupid enough to stand up in your face and say “I belong to the Roman Catholic Church, and the holy father, Pope so and so…” Then you say, “Well, what did he kill six million Jews for?” What and where do you find that the disciples, the twelve disciples, which were later apostles (which means eye witnesses) tell me where you find in the Book that He sent them out to murder somebody, and they’re looking at it and reading it all the time. And his excuse for murdering people is this: “That we did it in defense of the church.” You see he’s justified in putting them to death. Now you explain to me, take your Book, and explain to me where He sent one, just one, anyone of ’em out, and told them to go out there and kill anybody in defense of anything. And you’re to stupid and blind to see. Now I’m talking about, sure enough murder; take a gun and kill somebody! Then the people are arguing around about their Catholic faith, and their Catholic belief, and the Pope is the ruler of the world, and all that junk and stuff they got. Do you see through what I’m talking about Rip? And you’re to stupid to see that that’s the same old Devil, same old murderer that murdered his brother. That same old Devil that was cast out of the heaven; same old Devil that is come on down and transforming into angels of light, and Doctors of Divinity. Same one that the Messiah said was a murderer from the very beginning. And then you’re just so stupid, and just so ignorant… read it in the paper, hear it on TV, and still walk around… Do you see what I mean?
Now Roman Catholicism come out of Judaism. Roman Catholicism, (let me repeat) come out of Judaism, and Protestantism come out of Catholicism, which if I just say it, just ball it all up, and it comes back to what I said a while ago, “Christendom is wrong.” Now here’s the same old Devil, transformed. They have murdered up millions of people by shooting them, and putting them to death at the stake, and burning them, just any and every kind of way. Now here’s the same old Devil, transformed, changed over again with all of his tricks. It’s Christendom,
Protestants; I’m talking about Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and all the rest of them! Now is that clear to you? And you can’t see that too. Here’s Messiah… Now remember Jesus said that, (as you call it there), in John 8:44 , He said “Now he’s a murderer, and he’s a liar, was that from the very beginning.” Now He did say that, and if you don’t think He did, I’ll read. John 8:44 , “A murderer and a liar.”
Now look! As Dr. Allen said to you a while ago, now you watch this stunt, (keep your eye on it), now you see don’t you, now you don’t see it. [Doc imitates magicians] Get it? Now here it is Bishop. Now He come to fulfill all of these Carnal Ordinances back here. Now look Freddy, they had water baptism! John was baptized by baptizing under the Law. And when Israel passed through the Red Sea , and carry it on back, even Noah’s baptism was under the law! Carry it on back, the first Adam himself, every fiber, every tissue, every sinew, was under the law! You heard me you’re not blind! Now here He come saying He’s fulfilling. Every carnal, (carnal means physical, it means natural, it means literal), ordinance that ever was given from God at any time… You heard me you’re not blind. But in this case those ordinances were given to Israel . None of the rest of them back before then, they never practiced by no covenant. Now when He bowed His head He said “Don’t you think I come to destroy the law and the prophets, I come to fulfill, and verily verily I say unto you, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass until it is all fulfilled.” Is that what He said? And when He bowed His head in the locks of His shoulders out on Golgotha , John 19:30, He said “It’s finished.” What’s finished? “I’ve finished fulfilling the law and the prophets.” You understand that do you Bishop?
Bishop Short: um hum
Dr. Kinley: If you do, we’re together on that ain’t we? Aren’t we doc?
Bishop Short: That’s right
Dr. Kinley: Now look! Now look at Protestantism. Now then here they come dragging water baptism that was under the law, they’re dragging water baptism; they come dragging Lord Suppers; they come dragging foot washing over here, making Him out a liar! Now who told that lie? Your preacher standing right up there with the Devil in him! And to prove that, while the Papacy was murdering them, shooting ’em down and burning ’em to the stake, it started right there in the Book; they’re murdering you psychologically and every kind of way. They’re just as much of a murderer and liar as anybody else. Do you see what I mean? Carnal Ordinances was nailed to the cross, and you can’t un-nail them! Well why were they nailed to the cross? Moved the natural out of the way so we can serve Him in spirit and in truth! You get it? We just haven’t understood the mystery of God, and we just don’t know the Devil when we see him. No! Revern’ ain’t gone come up here and run over me! See I’ve been whipping ’em up; I been beating up Baptist, and Methodists, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics, and everybody, for thirty-five years! No Catholic, and no Protestant has ever beat me doing it. When I stand up and tell him he’s wrong, HE’S WRONG, and possess the ability to prove it to. You can’t win. Now the best thing for you to do to keep from making an ass of yourself up here in public, is to take low and go on down! You don’t see no whole lot of preachers hanging round here. All of them that come here and stay… How are you there Brother Bishop? [Doc Laughs] How are you doing there Brother Williams? How are you Bishop Short? You see what I’m talking about? They mean business, if they didn’t they couldn’t stay here.
Dr. Williams: That’s a fact!
Dr. Kinley: And everybody you see here is out of some church. Ain’t nobody here but what ain’t out of some church. And listen let me tell you something, I recommend it, I’ve stood up here and begged you to go back down there to whatever church… You know I asked you. Didn’t I ask you to do that?
Student: Right
Dr. Kinley: And almost every time I looked up and seen you over here, I said “Get on back down there where you belong and bring the rest of them people on up here with you.” I can’t, they won’t even allow me to drive ’em back! And that idiot standing out yonder thinking I’m proselyting, trying to get some of his members, and here I’m trying to drive somebody down there to him to help him. Now we’ve got some up here that won’t go back down there. And then here they had the nerve to come strutting up here to see about them, (now they stood here in the pulpit and told you themselves), come strutting up here, said “Look, I come to rescue my…” Just like Brother Williams here he’s down there, and we can’t get him and run him back down there. And every time they come up here… See we’ve had some of that kind to come up here to rescue him, and they got stuck. You see it’s a powerful thing up here. See we don’t spare nobody we tell you just like it is.
I wanna mention one other thing then I’m done. But I thought I should tell you that for the sake of new people. That’s why I mentioned these things. Now, you know that the ministration, the political ministration has changed. Now if you don’t understand like that, I’ll tell you this way: Governor Brown lost, and Reagan won. Now you know what I’m talking a about, don’t you? [Doc Laughs] You see, there’s always somebody say, “Did you understand?” Said, “No I didn’t quite understand.” Well, I guess you understand that! You see what I mean? Yes sir. Now he lost. Now way back when we first come here and applied for a State Charter License to teach and set up an organization in this state; now we at that time did not file… We filed as a school, a religious and scientific school. And at the time that we filed they granted us a charter. And then in our charter we did not ask at that time for the rights and privileges, for the state to grant us rights and privileges to grant you a diploma; we didn’t ask for it. And here this evening, since the ministration is changed, and they’re investigating all these things, they called by telephone and they said, “Well look, you haven’t properly processed that application for a diploma, a licensed diploma.” Said, “We know that you got the charter, but you haven’t filled that out.” Now if you do that, then this is what you’re suppose to do. You apply for that, then you’re suppose to send us that so they can look at it, and see what you got there for lessons that you’re gonna grant a diploma on, and see whether that passes State inspection or not. Well we didn’t apply; we didn’t request it. We didn’t want it so therefore we didn’t send the application in on it. So now the administration is changing now, so we’ve got to do something about it, and we got’a find out something about this thing, and so they called us today. Now listen, the reason why we didn’t apply for no diploma… And here was their reason for putting that in legislation is because a lot of these schools around they charge two, and three, and four, and five hundred dollars for a diploma all over this country. You see, now you can get acquainted with me, and you don’t have to come to school down here, but you just get acquainted with me, and I come up and say “Well, since I know you pretty well, I’ll give you a diploma, and I’ll sell it to you for half price.” That’s the diploma mill. Now they’re trying to get it stopped all over this country, so they’re trying to find out. Now there’s something in that too. They’re talking about property taxes and things of that kind being so high, and they wanna see if we’re operating as a Non-profit School. If we’re selling diplomas and all, and giving out diplomas, and taking in so much cash for it, then they wanna know whether you’re paying that in your income taxes. I told you the ministration changed from Democratic to Republican, and they got’a get all them things straightened out. Now listen! Now here’s the reason why we didn’t apply for it! In this school, Dr. Gross is been around here thirty-four years – you haven’t got no diploma!
Dr. Gross: No, that’s right
Dr. Kinley: You heard Brother Allen say that way back there didn’t you? Dr. Harris been in here quite some time, and Brother Jeff Fullen been in here, Brother Bill Gross, and it’s several of ’em been here long, long time, and it takes four years to graduate in the majority of schools. Now a lot of them been in here eight, and ten, and fifteen, and twenty years, and still ain’t got no diploma. Now why? Cause your diploma that you’re gonna get is issued from upstairs, that’s why I don’t give ’em! Paul said “I know that there is laid up for me a Crown of Life which the Lord, that Righteous Judge, shall give me at that day.” And I’m gone let Him grant you to the diploma. For we shall all appear at the judgment seat of God, and we shall give in account for the deeds done while we’re at home in the body. And if you are worthy of a diploma you will get it then. That’s why I didn’t apply to the State. Now is that understood Mr. Reagan? Let’s go home.
Audience: Applause
